Legislature(1999 - 2000)

03/22/2000 01:14 PM House JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
         HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                                     
                   March 22, 2000                                                                                               
                     1:14 p.m.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Representative Joe Green                                                                                                        
Representative Norman Rokeberg                                                                                                  
Representative Jeannette James                                                                                                  
Representative Lisa Murkowski                                                                                                   
Representative Eric Croft                                                                                                       
Representative Beth Kerttula                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative Pete Kott, Chairman                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 162(JUD)                                                                                                 
"An Act relating to the rule against perpetuities, nonvested                                                                    
property interests, and powers of appointment; and providing for an                                                             
effective date."                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED HCS CSSB 162(JUD) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 369                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to property exemptions under the Alaska Exemptions                                                             
Act; and providing for an effective date."                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 398                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to the Alaska Life and Health Insurance Guaranty                                                               
Association."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS ACTION                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
BILL: SB 162                                                                                                                    
SHORT TITLE: RULE AGAINST PERPETUITIES                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 4/22/99      1040     (S)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 4/22/99      1040     (S)  JUD                                                                                                 
 4/28/99               (S)  JUD AT  1:30 PM BELTZ 211                                                                           
 4/28/99               (S)  -- MEETING CANCELLED --                                                                             
 5/03/99               (S)  JUD AT  1:30 PM BELTZ 211                                                                           
 5/03/99               (S)  MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                         
 5/05/99               (S)  JUD AT  1:30 PM BELTZ 211                                                                           
 5/05/99               (S)  -- MEETING CANCELLED --                                                                             
 5/07/99               (S)  JUD AT  1:30 PM BELTZ 211                                                                           
 5/07/99               (S)  -- MEETING CANCELLED --                                                                             
 5/10/99               (S)  JUD AT  1:30 PM BELTZ 211                                                                           
 5/10/99               (S)  SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                                             
 5/10/99               (S)  MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                         
 5/11/99               (S)  JUD AT  1:40 PM FAHRENKAMP 203                                                                      
 5/11/99               (S)  SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                                             
 5/12/99               (S)  JUD AT  2:30 PM BELTZ 211                                                                           
 5/12/99               (S)  MOVED CS (JUD) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                     
 5/13/99               (S)  MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                         
 5/13/99      1425     (S)  JUD RPT  CS  1DP 2NR      SAME TITLE                                                                
 5/13/99      1425     (S)  DP: TAYLOR; NR: ELLIS, DONLEY                                                                       
 5/13/99      1425     (S)  ZERO FISCAL NOTE (LAW)                                                                              
 1/12/00               (S)  MINUTE(RLS)                                                                                         
 1/13/00      1959     (S)  RULES TO CALENDAR AND 2 OR 0                                                                        
 1/13/00      1960     (S)  ZERO FISCAL NOTE (LAW)                                                                              
 1/13/00      1964     (S)  READ THE SECOND TIME                                                                                
 1/13/00      1964     (S)  JUD CS ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                                                                         
 1/13/00      1964     (S)  ADVANCED TO THIRD READING                                                                           
                            UNAN CONSENT                                                                                        
 1/13/00      1964     (S)  READ THE THIRD TIME  CSSB 162(JUD)                                                                  
 1/13/00      1965     (S)  PASSED Y19 N- A1                                                                                    
 1/13/00      1965     (S)  EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE                                                                   
 1/13/00      1967     (S)  TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                                                                  
 1/14/00      1918     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                     
 1/14/00      1918     (H)  RLS (HB 219 IS THE COMPANION BILL)                                                                  
 1/18/00      1937     (H)  RULES TO CALENDAR  1/18                                                                             
 1/18/00      1937     (H)  READ THE SECOND TIME                                                                                
 1/18/00      1938     (H)  ADVANCED TO THIRD READING 1/21                                                                      
                            CALENDAR                                                                                            
 1/21/00      1974     (H)  READ THE THIRD TIME  CSSB 162(JUD)                                                                  
 1/21/00      1974     (H)  REFERRED TO JUD                                                                                     
 1/26/00               (H)  JUD AT  1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                         
 1/26/00               (H)  <Bill Postponed>                                                                                    
 3/22/00               (H)  JUD AT  1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 369                                                                                                                    
SHORT TITLE: PROPERTY EXEMPTIONS                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 2/11/00      2183     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                     
 2/11/00      2184     (H)  L&C, JUD                                                                                            
 3/01/00               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
 3/01/00               (H)  Moved Out of Committee                                                                              
 3/01/00               (H)  MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                         
 3/03/00      2389     (H)  L&C RPT 2DP 2NR                                                                                     
 3/03/00      2389     (H)  DP: HARRIS, ROKEBERG; NR: MURKOWSKI,                                                                
 3/03/00      2389     (H)  HALCRO                                                                                              
 3/03/00      2389     (H)  ZERO FISCAL NOTE (LAW)                                                                              
 3/03/00      2389     (H)  REFERRED TO JUDICIARY                                                                               
 3/22/00               (H)  JUD AT  1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 398                                                                                                                    
SHORT TITLE: LIFE AND HEALTH INSURANCE GUARANTY ASSN                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 2/16/00      2218     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                     
 2/16/00      2218     (H)  L&C, JUD                                                                                            
 3/03/00               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
 3/03/00               (H)  Moved CSHB 398(L&C) Out of Committee                                                                
 3/03/00               (H)  MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                         
 3/06/00      2420     (H)  L&C RPT CS(L&C) 3DP 2NR                                                                             
 3/06/00      2420     (H)  DP: HARRIS, CISSNA, ROKEBERG;                                                                       
 3/06/00      2420     (H)  NR: HALCRO, MURKOWSKI                                                                               
 3/06/00      2420     (H)  ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DCED)                                                                             
 3/06/00      2420     (H)  REFERRED TO JUDICIARY                                                                               
 3/17/00      2598     (H)  CORRECTED L&C CS                                                                                    
 3/22/00               (H)  JUD AT  1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
LESIL McGUIRE, Legislative Assistant                                                                                            
   to Representative Pete Kott                                                                                                  
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 118                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT:  As Committee Aide for House Judiciary Standing                                                             
Committee, provided overview of SB 162 and Version M.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
STEPHEN GREER, Attorney at Law                                                                                                  
4041 B Street, Number 205                                                                                                       
Anchorage, Alaska  99503                                                                                                        
POSITION STATEMENT:  Explained changes in Version M of SB 162;                                                                  
emphasized its importance in trying to create a trust industry in                                                               
Alaska and in allowing creation of trusts that can go on for 1,000                                                              
years without being subject to federal estate tax.  Testified on HB
369.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
DAVID SHAFTEL, Attorney at Law                                                                                                  
550 West 7th Avenue, Suite 705                                                                                                  
Anchorage, Alaska  99501                                                                                                        
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of SB 162 [Version M],                                                                
saying it is important to remedy the "Delaware tax trap."                                                                       
Testified on HB 369.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
DOUGLAS BLATTMACHR, President                                                                                                   
  and Chief Executive Officer                                                                                                   
Alaska Trust Company                                                                                                            
1029 West 3rd Avenue                                                                                                            
Anchorage, Alaska  99501                                                                                                        
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of SB 162 [Version M].                                                                
                                                                                                                                
RICHARD THWAITES, JR., Attorney at Law                                                                                          
500 L Street, Suite 301                                                                                                         
Anchorage, Alaska  99501                                                                                                        
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of SB 162 [Version M].                                                                
                                                                                                                                
JOHN MANLY, Staff                                                                                                               
     to Representative John Harris                                                                                              
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 110                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT:  Presented HB 369 and HB 398 on behalf of the                                                               
bill sponsors.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
JOHN GEORGE, Lobbyist                                                                                                           
American Council of Life Insurance                                                                                              
3328 Fritz Cove Road                                                                                                            
Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                                                                            
POSITION STATEMENT:  Discussed HB 398, CSHB 398(L&C) and the Ford                                                               
I.2 amendment.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
DON THOMAS, Executive Director                                                                                                  
Alaska Life and Health Insurance Guaranty Association                                                                           
(Address not provided)                                                                                                          
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Urged the committee's support of CSHB 398(L&C)                                                             
and the Ford I.2 amendment.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MARY BETH STEVENS, Alaska Legislative Director and Counsel                                                                      
American Council of Life Insurers                                                                                               
(Address not provided)                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT:  Reviewed changes encompassed in CSHB 398(L&C).                                                             
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 00-35, SIDE A                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN called the House Judiciary Standing                                                                    
Committee meeting to order at 1:14 p.m.  Members present at the                                                                 
call to order were Representatives Green, Rokeberg, James,                                                                      
Murkowski and Croft.  Representative Kerttula arrived as the                                                                    
meeting was in progress.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SB 162 - RULE AGAINST PERPETUITIES                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
[HB 219 was the companion bill heard previously in the House                                                                    
Judiciary Standing Committee.]                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN announced that the first order of business                                                                 
would be CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 162(JUD), "An Act relating to the                                                               
rule against perpetuities, nonvested property interests, and powers                                                             
of appointment; and providing for an effective date."  [SB 162 was                                                              
sponsored by the Senate Judiciary Committee by request.  The                                                                    
companion bill, HB 219, had been heard and moved out of the House                                                               
Judiciary Standing Committee on 5/12/99.  In committee packets was                                                              
proposed House CS for CSSB 162, Version M (1-LS0485\M, Chenoweth,                                                               
3/6/00).]  Representative Green asked Lesil McGuire, Committee                                                                  
Aide, to make opening remarks.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 0070                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
LESIL McGUIRE, Legislative Assistant to Representative Pete Kott,                                                               
Alaska State Legislature, speaking as the Committee Aide to the                                                                 
House Judiciary Standing Committee, explained that the companion                                                                
bill [HB 219] had already passed through this committee.  There was                                                             
a little bit of confusion in the process, however, and the bill                                                                 
version [that passed out of the Senate] had a glitch.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. McGUIRE advised members that in April 1997, the legislature                                                                 
amended AS 34.27.050(a) of Alaska's trust law to include a                                                                      
[paragraph] (3), which made the rule against perpetuities                                                                       
inapplicable to those trusts where a trustee has the ability to                                                                 
make a distribution to a person living when the trust is created.                                                               
In adding this language, the legislature in effect abolished the                                                                
rule against perpetuities, making it possible to create a trust                                                                 
that can continue forever.  The abolition was significant for                                                                   
Alaska's trust business, booming since 1997.  With careful                                                                      
drafting, perpetual trusts can avoid all federal estate tax and                                                                 
continue to grow for the use of successive generations; that is the                                                             
goal in creating those trusts.  The tax advantage has caused at                                                                 
least ten states to abolish the rule against perpetuities, and five                                                             
others have pending legislature that would do so.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. McGUIRE told members that the legislation before the committee                                                              
seeks to fix a problem discovered by a group of Anchorage trust and                                                             
estate attorneys.  Affectionately called the "Delaware tax trap" -                                                              
because when Delaware enacted something similar to this                                                                         
legislation, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) found a way to                                                                  
collect tax on that - this problem is fatal to numerous trusts                                                                  
created in Alaska since passage of the 1997 Act.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. McGUIRE explained the problem:  Any person who creates a                                                                    
perpetual trust usually wants to give the trust beneficiaries the                                                               
power to direct the disposition of their assets at death, as a                                                                  
means of making the trust more flexible; that is the power of                                                                   
appointment.  Under present law, however, if a beneficiary                                                                      
exercises a special power of appointment by directing that the                                                                  
trust assets continue in trust for the benefit of an individual who                                                             
is the beneficiary, and if that beneficiary also is given a special                                                             
power of appointment in the trust, then the trust assets eventually                                                             
will be subjected to either an estate or a gift tax liability.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. McGUIRE told members the problem is fixed in this bill by                                                                   
stating that the trust will vest in 1,000 years.  Practically                                                                   
speaking, that makes it perpetual but provides an end-point; for                                                                
tax purposes, that seems to cure the "Delaware tax trap" problem.                                                               
Ms. McGuire deferred to Steve Greer, who she said had provided                                                                  
effective explanations to herself and Chairman Kott in Anchorage a                                                              
month before.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 0420                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
STEPHEN GREER, Attorney at Law, came forward, noting that he is a                                                               
sole practitioner in Anchorage who focuses on estate and gift tax                                                               
planning.  He told the committee this is a technical bill, remedial                                                             
in nature.  He agreed that the rule against perpetuities was                                                                    
rendered ineffective in April 1997 so that trusts could go on                                                                   
forever, and that there is a tax reason for wanting to do this;                                                                 
however, it created the little-known problem known as the "Delaware                                                             
tax trap."  He said he wouldn't be surprised if all 50 states have                                                              
similar legislation within five years.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 0482                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked what tax consequences there are to                                                                   
abolishing the rule against perpetuities.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER posed an example where he wants to create a trust, using                                                              
his own money, for Ms. McGuire.  He can give Ms. McGuire rights to                                                              
this trust that are really almost tantamount to outright ownership,                                                             
and as long as he falls short of that threshold, the properties in                                                              
the trust won't be subject to estate tax at her death; they can                                                                 
pass on to her children, and to their children.  The rule against                                                               
perpetuities says that cannot be.  It says all interest must vest                                                               
"within the lives in being" at the time the trust is created - Ms.                                                              
McGuire's life, in this instance - plus 21 years, at which point                                                                
the trust must terminate and the assets must be distributed to                                                                  
those beneficiaries.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER continued.  If it were possible to have a trust continue                                                              
forever - because the rule against perpetuities has been done away                                                              
with - he could give Ms. McGuire the following:  the right to be                                                                
trustee of her own trust; the right to all of the income that the                                                               
trust generates; and the right to as much of the principal as she                                                               
determines, in her position as trustee, is necessary for                                                                        
maintenance and support.  Furthermore, he could give her a special                                                              
testamentary power to appoint those assets to other beneficiaries                                                               
at her death, either outright or in trust for the benefit of those                                                              
beneficiaries.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER emphasized that giving Ms. McGuire that testamentary                                                                  
special power of appointment is incredibly important for these                                                                  
kinds of trusts, because if they can run on in perpetuity, one                                                                  
wants the beneficiaries - whose properties these really are - to be                                                             
able to change the disposition of that trust to meet changing                                                                   
conditions.  In this instance, his own trust would probably say                                                                 
that if Ms. McGuire doesn't exercise this testamentary special                                                                  
power of appointment at her death, [the trust assets] will go to                                                                
her children in equal shares, per stirpes.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER continued.  If one of Ms. McGuire's children has a                                                                    
disability, for example, Ms. McGuire could exercise her                                                                         
testamentary special power of appointment and leave that property                                                               
in trust for the benefit of that child.  Or if she had two                                                                      
children, a doctor and a drug addict, she could diminish the amount                                                             
that the drug addict would receive, or at least leave it in trust                                                               
for that child, and give the other share to the child who has done                                                              
well in life and has worked hard.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER again emphasized the importance of including the special                                                              
power of appointment.  He said this is why all of these states are                                                              
getting in line to abolish the rule against perpetuities.  When he                                                              
creates this trust, he has to allocate an amount of generation-                                                                 
skipping tax exemption equal to the value of the trust when he                                                                  
funds it, but from that point forward, this trust can grow to                                                                   
whatever value.  As long as he doesn't give those beneficiaries                                                                 
rights that exceed the threshold which he had just described, these                                                             
properties can pass on and on and on, in further trust.  This                                                                   
legislation allows people to essentially create a fund that can go                                                              
on forever without being subject to a federal estate tax.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0766                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT said the object, then, is to give Ms. McGuire                                                              
the money; if it were given straight out, then at the end of her                                                                
life she would have to pay estate tax.  This gives it to her, in                                                                
effect, with almost all of the rights of it but in a way that                                                                   
avoids estate tax forever.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER affirmed that, saying that is the law now.  He reiterated                                                             
that within ten to fifteen years all fifty states will have similar                                                             
legislation; he pointed out that most of the ten states onboard now                                                             
came onboard within the last three years, and five others have                                                                  
pending legislation.  "We all wonder at what point the federal                                                                  
government's going to get tired of this," he commented, saying the                                                              
federal government is in a state of flux with the whole estate and                                                              
gift tax regime.  "But all we can do is form trusts on the basis of                                                             
the law as it now stands, and that's the way it is right now," he                                                               
concluded.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 0835                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked:  If Ms. McGuire has the authority to                                                                
modify the trust and pass that right on to her doctor child [in the                                                             
hypothetical situation], how does that differ from having full                                                                  
authority?                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER responded that this is a tax definition; that is all it                                                               
is.  If he said that [Ms. McGuire] has the power to appoint these                                                               
assets at her death to her estate or to creditors of her estate,                                                                
then she has a general power of appointment, and all that property                                                              
would be subject to estate tax at her death.  "As long as you                                                                   
exclude those two individuals, you can include everybody else," Mr.                                                             
Greer said, "and yet, under ... the federal estate and gift                                                                     
taxation of what defines a general power of appointment and a                                                                   
special power of appointment, ... it will not be included in her                                                                
estate because it's considered to be a special power of                                                                         
appointment."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 0905                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said without the rule against perpetuities,                                                                
then, his own [trust] could go on for another 1,000 years.                                                                      
However, he thought that was the whole purpose of the rule against                                                              
perpetuities.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER agreed the trust could go on and on.  He said this is a                                                               
"technical thing" and isn't meant to get into the argument of                                                                   
whether to abolish the rule against perpetuities, which has already                                                             
been done.  This tries to fix a problem, to give beneficiaries of                                                               
a perpetual trust a special power of appointment so that the trust                                                              
can retain flexibility.  There is even a public policy reason for                                                               
that, he suggested.  However, a provision in the Internal Revenue                                                               
Code passed in 1951, found under Sections 2041(a)(3) and 2512(d),                                                               
says that if Ms. McGuire, in this case, takes her special power of                                                              
appointment and creates a trust for the benefit of her child, in                                                                
turn giving that child a special power of appointment regarding                                                                 
those assets in trust at his or her death, that sets off the                                                                    
"Delaware tax trap."  She would be considered to have created a                                                                 
general power of appointment, and all that trust property would be                                                              
thrown into her estate.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER acknowledged how technical this area is.  Offering some                                                               
history, he said at first the desire was to abolish the rule                                                                    
against perpetuities and make that clear, instead of doing this                                                                 
sleight of hand that essentially rendered it ineffective.                                                                       
Therefore, they had proposed SB 162.  However, Mr. Greer had                                                                    
started wondering whether that created a "Delaware tax trap"                                                                    
problem; he knows national experts and had posed this question to                                                               
others.  He had wanted to actually initiate the "Delaware tax trap"                                                             
to get out of the generation-skipping tax problem.  He had talked                                                               
to a University of Tennessee law professor, Amy Hess (ph) and then                                                              
to Jonathan Blattmachr, who was instrumental in the legislation and                                                             
who at first dismissed the idea.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER provided further history, noting that he had continued                                                                
his correspondence.  He mentioned the University of Miami estate                                                                
planning program, from which he had graduated, then said Bruce                                                                  
Stone (ph), who heads the legislative drafting committee in                                                                     
Florida, had put out legislation for that state; that legislative                                                               
history included a concern that many states which had abolished the                                                             
rule against perpetuities had stumbled into the "Delaware tax                                                                   
trap."  With Mr. Stone's corroborative report, Mr. Greer had                                                                    
returned to Mr. Blattmachr and his own attorney group, who saw the                                                              
need to fix this problem.  His solution, then, was to abolish the                                                               
rule against perpetuities, but with respect to this limited                                                                     
circumstance where one takes a special power of appointment and                                                                 
exercises it to create a further special power of appointment, the                                                              
property subject to that special power of appointment must vest                                                                 
within 1,000 years.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1151                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked whether there wasn't some logic,                                                                     
however, to the decision interpreting the [1951] tax code.  If one                                                              
exercises a special power to grant that special power again, isn't                                                              
that coming so close to a general power that it is general?  And                                                                
shouldn't taxes be paid at that point?  "Or no one should ever pay                                                              
estate tax," he added.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER said that is a philosophical question.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT suggested that it is a public policy                                                                       
discussion which legislators should be concerned with.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER responded that the legislature took the position in 1997                                                              
that abolishing the rule was a good thing, and other states                                                                     
apparently feel the same way.  This is probably the most important                                                              
piece of legislation that exists as far as trying to create a trust                                                             
industry here in Alaska, he said.  Many states have recently                                                                    
enacted these statutes and fallen into the "Delaware tax trap"; he                                                              
cited Rhode Island as an example.  Mr. Greer said he has even                                                                   
declined to write an article in the country's most prestigious                                                                  
estate planning magazine on this unless [Alaska] fixes its                                                                      
legislation to cure this; he doesn't want to highlight any other                                                                
states' problems, which would, in turn, highlight Alaska's                                                                      
problems.  If this isn't fixed, he believes millions or possibly                                                                
hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake.  As far as the estate                                                             
and gift tax question, he asked whether that isn't a congressional                                                              
debate, in the federal government's hands.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 1353                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said this sounds like a really fine line.  He                                                              
asked whether it is certain that the IRS would agree that this                                                                  
change [to 1,000 years] still would not be quite full ownership.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER said it would fix the problem, for a number of reasons.                                                               
He had submitted the draft [legislation] to Jonathan [Blattmachr]'s                                                             
law firm, which he believes is composed entirely of Harvard Law                                                                 
School graduates and which has represented Jackie Onassis and the                                                               
Rockefellers, for example; he had received revisions back as                                                                    
recently as last month.  Mr. Greer stated:                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Yes, we think it will work ... To be honest with you, we                                                                   
     know it'll work with respect to all future trusts because                                                                  
     this legislation [hinges itself] on a Wisconsin statute;                                                                   
     in fact, we just mimicked the Wisconsin statute.  And the                                                                  
     [United States] Tax Court, in the Estate of Murphy                                                                         
     [Murphy, Mary Margaret, Estate of v. Comm.], says, "Yes,                                                                   
     indeed, it does work if the statute reads this way."  But                                                                  
     we had to go further.  We had to fix all those existing                                                                    
     trusts that were created since April of '97.  And so this                                                                  
     legislation does two things.  We've actually got two                                                                       
     lines of defense here.  We've got the Estate of Murphy,                                                                    
     and we go further and we set up a perpetuity period of a                                                                   
     thousand years in that limited circumstance where a                                                                        
     special power is exercised to create a further special                                                                     
     power.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN surmised that when the thousandth year is                                                                  
reached, some taxes would have to be paid if the trust still                                                                    
exists.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER clarified, "Well, someone's got to get the money."                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1371                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI referred to the retroactivity to April 1,                                                              
1997.  She asked how many trusts are in this "Delaware tax trap."                                                               
She further asked whether this remedies the situation not only for                                                              
trusts created after the date of passage of SB 162 but also for                                                                 
other trusts caught in the trap, without having to go into those                                                                
individually to fix them somehow.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER said the answer is yes to all.  He cannot imagine a                                                                   
competent attorney setting up a perpetual trust without giving                                                                  
beneficiaries special powers of appointment, which provide                                                                      
flexibility to meet changing conditions over time.  He noted that                                                               
[Internal Revenue Code] Section 2041(a)(3) is complicated but                                                                   
essentially states that to determine whether the "Delaware tax                                                                  
trap" will be set off, one must look at local law.  If, by looking                                                              
at local law, the time in which a property subject to that special                                                              
power of appointment vests cannot be ascertained without looking                                                                
back to the date of the creation of the instrument creating the                                                                 
first special power of appointment, then the "Delaware tax trap"                                                                
exists.  He likened it to rocket science.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER explained that by changing the law to read that this                                                                  
property has to vest within 1,000 years of that date of creation of                                                             
the original trust instrument, it now falls outside of the literal                                                              
reading of 2041(a)(3), and "we're home free."  He referred to                                                                   
retroactivity.  Noting that the ability to create a perpetual trust                                                             
has only existed since April of 1997, he said they are looking at                                                               
perpetual trusts created between then and the date of enactment for                                                             
this current bill.  The solution is already found in our law,                                                                   
adopted from the uniform statutory rule against perpetuities passed                                                             
by the national commissioners.  In that law, [AS] 34.27.07(a), the                                                              
second sentence says that if one exercises a special power of                                                                   
appointment, the law in effect at the time that occurs will be the                                                              
law that controls.  If Alaska were to pass a law that is different                                                              
from what the law was back then, someone who exercises a special                                                                
power of appointment with respect to one of these old trusts would                                                              
look to the laws that now exist.  Mr. Greer explained:                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     And the reason they did that was ... because previous to                                                                   
     enacting this law, we only had the common law rule                                                                         
     against perpetuities, which says all property interests                                                                    
     must vest within the lives in being plus 21 years.  And                                                                    
     the uniform statutory rule said, "You know, this is a                                                                      
     pretty difficult thing to understand."  I think in law                                                                     
     school, if you can remember, ... that was the one area of                                                                  
     law we [were] told you could never malpractice in; it's                                                                    
     just too complicated for anyone to understand. ...                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     What they did with the uniform statutory rule against                                                                      
     perpetuities, they put in a wait-and-see provision of 90                                                                   
     years:  ... "We'll wait and see whether or not ... these                                                                   
     property interests vest within this 90-year period, okay?                                                                  
     And this will affect all those old trusts that you may                                                                     
     have created, where you haven't exercised the special                                                                      
     power of appointment ....  We'll wait and see if it vests                                                                  
     within the 90-year period from the date that you exercise                                                                  
     that special power of appointment."  So, ... the body of                                                                   
     law is already there to make it retroactive back to April                                                                  
     of '97.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER remarked that the complexity of the rule against                                                                      
perpetuities is one reason why a lot of states have decided to                                                                  
abolish it.  He asked what good a law is that no one understands.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 1706                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI referred to Mr. Greer's mention of                                                                     
comments from Florida.  She asked whether Alaska is the first state                                                             
to figure out how to get around this "Delaware tax trap" with                                                                   
legislation like that before the committee.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER answered yes, except that if Alaska essentially had                                                                   
abolished the rule against perpetuities back in April of 1997 and                                                               
had put in its place another statute, a rule against the suspension                                                             
of the power of alienation, "we would have been home free."  He                                                                 
added, "We wouldn't even have to address this problem because under                                                             
the Estate of Murphy,  we ... wouldn't have to reckon with this                                                                 
'Delaware tax trap.'  But we did not."  Mr. Greer told members,                                                                 
"What's novel about our statute is this:  ... it provides ... a                                                                 
vesting regime with respect to property interests that are subject                                                              
to the exercise of this special power of appointment; and we're                                                                 
saying that it has to vest within the 1,000-year period."  He                                                                   
indicated the 1,000-year period was an idea offered by a Florida                                                                
professor.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 1780                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked what happens if ten years from now the                                                               
legislature modifies this law.  Could that negate this?  Would [Ms.                                                             
McGuire's] hoped-for estate be "tax due" at the end of her                                                                      
lifetime?  Once established, could her estate falter?                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER said no, it is fixed; this is just a fixing statute.                                                                  
However, there is no guarantee that what they do will be good ten                                                               
years from now.  "And we're all wondering what the federal                                                                      
government is going to do," he added.  In response to a further                                                                 
question about what happens if the federal government passes                                                                    
superseding legislation, Mr. Greer suggested the need to keep                                                                   
current no matter what the area of law or life.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 1906                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG referred to Section 7 of the bill and said                                                              
he was trying to understand the thrust of that.  Mentioning the                                                                 
hypothetical situation discussed earlier by Mr. Greer, he asked how                                                             
one manages the corpus of the trust regarding selling [assets], for                                                             
example, if one is "restricted from your power of alienation."                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER suggested that the public policy reason behind the rule                                                               
against perpetuities is to ensure free marketability of the                                                                     
property in trust.  He added, "Well, in a sense we're doing that                                                                
now."  He said previously [Alaska] never had a rule against the                                                                 
suspension of power of alienation; that rule says one must always                                                               
be able to give someone the ability to sell property, which makes                                                               
it transferable.  The gist of Section 7 is that one cannot suspend                                                              
that power for more than 30 years; in other words, even though this                                                             
trust can continue on forever, one has to be able to give the                                                                   
trustee the ability to sell the property while it is in trust.                                                                  
That is one good reason for including Section 7.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER pointed out that the principal reason for including                                                                   
Section 7, however, is this is what the Estate of Murphy hinged on.                                                             
He commented that the [United States] Tax Court and the IRS - the                                                               
[Department of the] Treasury - have both misinterpreted the rule                                                                
against perpetuities, and he really wonders what they were reading.                                                             
He noted that the seminal article on this, "Perpetuities in a                                                                   
Nutshell," was written by Profession Leach (ph) in 1934 in the                                                                  
Harvard Law Journal.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER told members that, in short, the tax court says that some                                                             
states have characterized their rule against perpetuities as a rule                                                             
against the remote vesting of property, whereas other states have                                                               
characterized theirs as a rule against the suspension of the power                                                              
of alienation.  In the latter instance, as long as the special                                                                  
power of appointment relates back to the date of the original trust                                                             
instrument, the "Delaware tax trap" will not be violated.  The                                                                  
irony is that one can give a trustee the power to sell property -                                                               
which every trust would do - and never violate the rule against the                                                             
suspension of the power of alienation; nonetheless, the property                                                                
can still stay in trust forever and still be excluded from estate                                                               
taxes that pass from one generation to the next.  He said that                                                                  
really makes one wonder if the [Department of the] Treasury knew                                                                
what they were doing.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER noted that the tax court, in fact, pointed that out,                                                                  
saying, "But you wrote the regulations, and now you're stuck with                                                               
it."  Furthermore, the IRS acquiesced and now agrees they will be                                                               
stuck with this decision.  However, the big point is what will                                                                  
happen down the road and whether Congress will put forth a rule                                                                 
that says these trusts cannot go on forever without being subject                                                               
to some sort of estate and generation-skipping tax.  "But that                                                                  
isn't the case now," Mr. Greer added.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 2106                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG requested confirmation that the State of                                                                
Alaska has no inheritance taxes.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER responded that it does, but it works like this:  "If you                                                              
pay the federal government a dollar, ... the state may get 20 cents                                                             
out of that dollar - it's not even really that high - ... but the                                                               
federal government will get the remaining 80 cents. ... You don't                                                               
end up paying $1.20; ... it's a type of revenue sharing."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG posed a scenario where one uses a special                                                               
power [of appointment] to change the nature of the asset mix.  He                                                               
asked whether one must keep a trail of the corpus of the principal                                                              
at all times.  He stated his understanding that Mr. Greer had said                                                              
one even could use up a substantial portion of the principal of the                                                             
trust.  He said presumably there would be some remainder to be                                                                  
passed on to the next generation.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER agreed but said that with the special power of                                                                        
appointment one could actually say that the trust is coming to an                                                               
end and distribute the assets.  It only continues if that is                                                                    
desired.  One wants the special power of appointment so that one                                                                
can terminate the trust down the line.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 2204                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI recalled that when [HB 219] was heard in                                                               
committee previously, it was addressing that the charitable lead                                                                
trust aspect had been overlooked.  She said she assumes that with                                                               
the newly revised and updated SB 162, they are rolling all the good                                                             
things from the former versions into this one.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER affirmed that and said he feels comfortable with it.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 2304                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DAVID SHAFTEL, Attorney at Law, testified via teleconference from                                                               
Anchorage.  He agreed that a number of states have abolished the                                                                
rule against perpetuities for tax and non-tax reasons.  A number                                                                
have avoided the glitch by prohibiting suspension of the power of                                                               
alienation; when they combine that with the use of the power of                                                                 
sale, they don't have the problem that Alaska and a few other                                                                   
states have stumbled into, the "Delaware tax trap," which is                                                                    
obsolete but nonetheless exists in the law.  All this bill does is                                                              
provide a way to avoid that glitch.  The unfortunate alternative                                                                
would be to not use special powers of appointment in these                                                                      
perpetual trusts, which are very popular right now, because those                                                               
special powers of appointment provide flexibility so that                                                                       
generation after generation can make adjustments.  This amendment                                                               
places Alaska on the same footing as other states that have already                                                             
done this in a little different way.  Mr. Shaftel concluded:                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     I think it's a very good bill.  There are a number of us                                                                   
     up here who have discussed this and looked at it.  And,                                                                    
     as I've mentioned to you before, we're an informal group                                                                   
     of estate planning attorneys who have a lot of experience                                                                  
     in this area.  There have been a lot of these trusts                                                                       
     created by Alaskans.  They have created them with the                                                                      
     expectations that they will get the same ... advantageous                                                                  
     treatment that the residents of other states are getting                                                                   
     in their estate planning. ... And so, it really is very                                                                    
     important, in my view and the view of our informal group,                                                                  
     that this glitch be remedied.  So I'd urge your support                                                                    
     of ... this bill.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 2430                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Shaftel whether he concurs with Mr.                                                              
Greer that until the law is changed, either at the federal or state                                                             
level, people who set up these trusts would be protected with the                                                               
passage of this legislation.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SHAFTEL affirmed that.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 2449                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DOUGLAS BLATTMACHR, President and Chief Executive Officer, Alaska                                                               
Trust Company, testified via teleconference from Anchorage,                                                                     
agreeing that the bill [Version M] corrects a glitch.  He                                                                       
concluded, "Probably 99 percent of the trusts that we have, have                                                                
that provision in there, so we would strongly recommend that the                                                                
committee approve this legislation."                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 2465                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
RICHARD THWAITES, JR., Attorney at Law, testified briefly via                                                                   
teleconference from Anchorage that he supports the legislation                                                                  
[Version M], a worthwhile change to the statute that would assist                                                               
in "the planning that we do" and would keep Alaska in the                                                                       
forefront.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 00-35, SIDE B                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. SHAFTEL, in response to a question by Representative Rokeberg,                                                              
emphasized the importance of retroactivity and the immense                                                                      
popularity of perpetual trusts, which have been set up by Alaskans                                                              
and nonresidents of Alaska who desire that perpetual characteristic                                                             
for their trusts.  The bill is designed to provide that type of                                                                 
benefit.  "I don't see any downsides, nor have I heard any                                                                      
downsides discussed of the retroactivity," he concluded.  "It's a                                                               
pure positive."                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated:                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Just for the record, Mr. Chairman, I would assume that                                                                     
     the public policy that this legislature decided on in '97                                                                  
     when we introduced the first legislation to establish the                                                                  
     trust, this is merely a ratification thereof, making sure                                                                  
     that those particular instruments that were created by                                                                     
     that policy are retained in place and not changed.  And                                                                    
     this is a vote of confidence, if you will, for that.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0060                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked whether most attorneys are aware of this                                                             
in Alaska or it is only shared by a few.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER reiterated that estate tax planning is very complicated;                                                              
typically, it requires him to spend two months every year, at no                                                                
pay, on continuing legal education, and Mr. Shaftel does the same.                                                              
The people who engage in this must dedicate their lives to it.  He                                                              
said he had attempted to share this problem with the entire estate                                                              
planning section of the bar association on countless occasions;                                                                 
however, perhaps only five or six people really understand it.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN thanked Mr. Greer, saying he believes it is an                                                             
extremely important issue.  Noting that there were no further                                                                   
testifiers signed up, he closed public testimony.  He asked whether                                                             
there was any discussion; none was offered.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0132                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG made a motion to adopt the proposed HCS for                                                             
CSSB 162, Version M [1-LS0485\M, Chenoweth, 3/6/00], as a work                                                                  
draft.  There being no objection, it was so ordered.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG made a motion to move HCS CSSB 162, Version                                                             
M, from committee with individual recommendations and the attached                                                              
zero fiscal note.  There being no objection, it was so ordered and                                                              
HCS CSSB 162(JUD) was moved from the House Judiciary Standing                                                                   
Committee.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
HB 369 - PROPERTY EXEMPTIONS                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN announced that the next order of business                                                                  
would be HOUSE BILL NO. 369, "An Act relating to property                                                                       
exemptions under the Alaska Exemptions Act; and providing for an                                                                
effective date."                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 0210                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JOHN MANLY, Staff to Representative John Harris, Alaska State                                                                   
Legislature, testified on behalf of the sponsor of HB 369.  He                                                                  
explained that HB 369 changes the "exemption statute," which is                                                                 
Title 9, Chapter 38.  Basically, HB 369 would increase the dollar                                                               
amounts of specified assets that would be protected under this                                                                  
exemption statute.  Furthermore, it provides new protection to                                                                  
assets that are not covered under the current law.  He pointed out                                                              
that "AS 09.38, exemption statute, delineates what assets are                                                                   
protected from creditors when a person is sued and loses and has a                                                              
judgment entered against him; it can also apply in some cases of                                                                
bankruptcy if the person opts to take state exemptions as opposed                                                               
to federal exemptions."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. MANLY specified that HB 369 will increase the homestead                                                                     
exemption to $250,000 per individual.  Currently, the homestead                                                                 
exemption is set in statute at $54,000, although it has been                                                                    
increased to $63,000 per the formula in statute.  The legislation                                                               
would also increase the exemption for the cash value of life                                                                    
insurance policies and/or annuity contracts owned by the individual                                                             
to $250,000.  Furthermore, HB 369 provides an unlimited exemption                                                               
on the proceeds of a life insurance contract or an annuity paid to                                                              
a beneficiary that is not the person seeking protection under the                                                               
exemption act.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. MANLY pointed out that HB 369 increases the ability to trace                                                                
assets that an individual could have claimed as an exemption from                                                               
six months to two years.  He noted that the new exemptions proposed                                                             
in HB 369 are located in Section 4.  Those exemptions address the                                                               
reserves held by a condominium association.  These reserves are                                                                 
usually held for maintenance and such and would be protected                                                                    
against some lawsuit against the association.  Section 5 provides                                                               
an exemption for a government employee's deferred compensation plan                                                             
in order that a deferred compensation plan would have the same                                                                  
protection as a 401K plan, for example.  He noted that Section 6                                                                
has a limited cash and liquid asset exemption of up to $8,075.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 0335                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN inquired as to what that is based on.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. MANLY said he believes that [limited cash and liquid asset                                                                  
exemption amount] is related to the Internal Revenue Services'                                                                  
(IRS) allowance.  However, he deferred to Mr. Greer.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. MANLY moved on to Section 13, which addresses how certain                                                                   
revocable trusts are treated.  When HB 369 was heard in the House                                                               
Labor & Commerce Committee, the Department of Labor & Workforce                                                                 
Development (DOLWD) discovered a problem with the reference to                                                                  
indexing in Sections 11 and 12 of the bill.  He explained that on                                                               
page 4, line 24, the bill references the index for January of 1998,                                                             
but there is no index for January because the indexing is performed                                                             
for the first half of the year and the second half of the year.                                                                 
There is also an average annual index.  The amendment would propose                                                             
that [the reference to January be changed] to the average annual                                                                
index as would also be the case for the other two occurrences on                                                                
page 4.  On page 5, DOLWD had a problem with how the additional                                                                 
portion of the percentage increases.  He indicated that the                                                                     
department recommended the deletion of the following language in                                                                
Section 12(b)(1), "portion of the percentage change in the index in                                                             
excess of a multiple of 10 percent is disregarded".  It was felt                                                                
that this phrase would cause the adjusted dollar amounts to                                                                     
understate inflation to a greater amount over time.  The suggestion                                                             
was to replace the deleted language in Section 12(b)(1) with the                                                                
following language, "the dollar amounts only change in multiples of                                                             
$100" and thus one would be rounding to $100 each time.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG noted that the Anchorage [index], the proxy                                                             
for the Alaska Index, "seems to have been raising it to a lesser                                                                
degree, historically over the last two decades, than the All U.S.                                                               
Average, All Urban Index.  So, there seems to be a preference to                                                                
use that because it shows somewhat less inflation."  Representative                                                             
Rokeberg said that this [HB 369] does clean it up.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 552                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG moved that the committee adopt [Amendment                                                               
1], labeled 1-LS1266\G.1, Bannister, 3/22/00, which reads as                                                                    
follows:                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 24:                                                                                                           
          Delete "index for January of"                                                                                         
          Insert "annual average of the index for [JANUARY                                                                      
          OF]"                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 26:                                                                                                           
          Delete "index for January of"                                                                                         
          Insert "annual average of the index for"                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 31:                                                                                                           
          Delete "index for January of that"                                                                                    
          Insert "annual average of the index for the year                                                                      
          preceding [JANUARY OF] that even-numbered"                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Page 5, lines 2 through 6:                                                                                                 
          Delete                                                                                                                
                    "(1) the portion of the percentage change in                                                                
     the index in excess of a multiple of 10 percent is disregarded                                                             
     and the dollar amounts change only in multiples of 10 percent                                                              
     of the amounts appearing in this chapter on the effective date                                                             
     of this Act for the dollar amounts in AS 09.38.010,                                                                        
     09.38.020(f), and 09.38.025(a) and (d) and on August 26, 1982,                                                             
     for the other dollar amounts in this chapter; and"                                                                         
          Insert                                                                                                                
                    "(1)  the [PORTION OF THE PERCENTAGE CHANGE IN                                                              
     THE  INDEX IN EXCESS OF A MULTIPLE OF 10 PERCENT IS                                                                        
     DISREGARDED AND THE] dollar amounts change only in multiples                                                               
     of $100 [10 PERCENT OF THE AMOUNTS APPEARING IN THIS CHAPTER                                                               
     ON AUGUST 26, 1982]; and"                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
There being no objection, [Amendment 1] was adopted.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0577                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
STEVE GREER, Attorney, informed the committee that what prompted HB
369 is essentially a provision found in Section 4 of the bill.  He                                                              
related the following disaster, which could have left hundreds of                                                               
people disposed from their homes.  Mr. Greer noted that he lived in                                                             
a condominium complex known as Foxwood Condominiums.  A couple of                                                               
years ago the [Foxwood Condominium] association hired a painter,                                                                
who covered a lighting fixture without letting the paint fully dry,                                                             
which led to a fire.  The entire building, eight units, went up in                                                              
flames.  One unit was occupied by a tenant who did not have                                                                     
renter's insurance and thus, in an attempt to cover his/her losses,                                                             
the renter sued the painter.  The painter was bonded and the                                                                    
lawsuit went on to include the condominium association as well as                                                               
the individual board members on the association, who happen to be                                                               
retired folks.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER continued.  This lawsuit went to a jury trial and                                                                     
fortunately, the resulting judgment was less than the amount of the                                                             
insurance which the condominium association had.  If that had not                                                               
been the case [and the judgment had been more than the amount of                                                                
the insurance held by the condominium association], all of the                                                                  
reserves would have been up for grabs.  Mr. Greer pointed out that                                                              
each month, people pay a certain amount into the condominium                                                                    
association.  That money is analogous to a trust account.  This                                                                 
could have been a disaster.  Therefore, this situation prompted                                                                 
this legislation in order to protect these reserves.  Upon review                                                               
of the remaining exemption amounts, it was felt that the exemptions                                                             
should be updated as that had not occurred since 1982.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER turned attention to the dollar amount for the homestead                                                               
exemption.  As was indicated earlier, 13 states provide more                                                                    
protection than Alaska does for its citizens even though it is more                                                             
expensive to live in Alaska versus other states.  Of these 13                                                                   
states, five provide unlimited exemptions.  Although an unlimited                                                               
exemption for a homestead was discussed, it was determined that                                                                 
would probably not ever happen.  Therefore, a dollar amount of                                                                  
$250,000 was proposed.  He explained that in 1997 Congress said                                                                 
that if one sells a principal residence, $250,000 per person can be                                                             
excluded of capital gains.  The thought was if that is the level                                                                
the federal government set for a principal residence, then the same                                                             
limit should be used for the purposes of the homestead exemption in                                                             
Alaska.  However, now there is a U.S. Senate and a U.S. House of                                                                
Representatives bankruptcy bill pending before Congress.  The bills                                                             
have been referred to a joint committee for resolution.  The U.S.                                                               
Senate bill sets a limit of $100,000 person while the U.S. House of                                                             
Representatives bill sets a limit of $250,000.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER pointed out that HB 369 would also raise the amount of                                                                
the cash value of an insurance policy from $12,000 per person to                                                                
$250,000 per person.  This increase is very important because as                                                                
people age, they become uninsurable.  If one cannot keep an                                                                     
insurance policy, there will be no insurance to pay to                                                                          
beneficiaries in the case of an untimely death.  This change would                                                              
also apply to annuities as annuities and insurance products are                                                                 
practically treated the same under the IRS code.  He pointed out                                                                
that typically, annuities are meant for retirement and the money                                                                
cannot be withdrawn before the age of 59.5 without a 10 percent                                                                 
penalty.  The current law provides protection for retirement                                                                    
benefits, except with respect to government employees.  He noted                                                                
that presently, deferred compensation plans [of government                                                                      
employees] under Section 457 are not protected.  Therefore, HB 369                                                              
includes that as well.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 0967                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to page 1, line 7, and asked if the                                                               
$250,000 homestead exemption was to apply to each individual or for                                                             
the homestead in total.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER answered that it [the $250,000] is meant for each                                                                     
individual.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said the language in Section 1(a) seems to say                                                             
that the maximum for the homestead is $250,000.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER said he could see that, although he knew the intent.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES interjected that [the language] is existing                                                                
law.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. MANLY pointed out that the key language in Section 1(a) is "the                                                             
individual's interest in property", which would key the amount to                                                               
the individual.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER asked if this problem could be resolved by the following:                                                             
on page 1, line 7, following "exemption", insert "for the                                                                       
individual's interest".                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said that she read this language to mean that                                                              
the maximum homestead exemption is $250,000.  She did not think                                                                 
that two joint owners of a homestead would receive $250,000 each.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER clarified that the intent was to have each individual                                                                 
receive $250,000; a marriage penalty was not intended.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES related her understanding, then, that a                                                                    
property with a $500,000 value can be exempted by two parties.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER replied yes.  However, if one person is liable, then only                                                             
that individual can protect his/her interest to the amount of                                                                   
$250,000.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said that would be a fairly sizable                                                                        
protection; is that what the committee desires?                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 1180                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN pointed out that there was a recommended                                                                   
amendment, Amendment 2, which read as follows:                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 7, following "exemption"                                                                                      
          Insert "for the individual's interest"                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
There being no objection, the adoption of Amendment 2 was ordered.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG noted that the bill packet should contain                                                               
letters from some Anchorage accountants, who believe that a                                                                     
$500,000 exemption for a married couple's house is too high.  This                                                              
is a public policy issue.  He said, "The combination of the                                                                     
$250,000 in cash value of insurance and a $500,000 in real estate                                                               
value and a few other little things, you could -- I would ask Mr.                                                               
Greer, how much can you stash in a year and go bankrupt?"                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER clarified that Representative Rokeberg's example [of a                                                                
$500,000 exemption] suggests that both couples are liable for the                                                               
damage.  He specified, "It is really $250,000 per person for the                                                                
household exemption."  Therefore, one could have $500,000 cash                                                                  
value in insurance plus $250,000 worth of equity in a home, which                                                               
could be protected.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT interjected that there could be $8,000 in                                                                  
miscellaneous and all one's retirement accounts.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER noted that the $8,000 comes from the bankruptcy code and                                                              
the [money from one's] retirement accounts is currently the law.                                                                
Mr. Greer remarked that this is, no doubt, a public policy issue in                                                             
which one would be saying that one is in support of someone being                                                               
able to keep their home.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN commented that when a painter comes to his                                                                 
home and the house burns down, the painter is fairly well                                                                       
protected.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER said, "That's the other aspect of this thing."                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG reiterated that this is a public policy                                                                 
issue in regard to what degree would the aggregate of exemptions be                                                             
allowed as use for shelter purposes for potential bankruptcies.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 1334                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DAVE SHAFTEL, Attorney, testified via teleconference from                                                                       
Anchorage.  He pointed out that HB 369 and the particular                                                                       
provisions in it have been discussed at length over the past couple                                                             
of years both among the informal group of attorneys as well as the                                                              
Estate Planning Section of the Alaska Bar Association.  This has                                                                
also been discussed before the Anchorage Estate Planning Council,                                                               
which is a mixed membership of attorneys, CPAs, trust officers,                                                                 
insurance brokers, securities brokers and financial planners.  Mr.                                                              
Shaftel said that he has heard very few negative comments as most                                                               
comments surrounded the need to update and adjust these provisions.                                                             
He noted that there is quite a bit of information in regard to what                                                             
other states have done, which he believes Mr. Greer has.  He also                                                               
noted that there are a handful of states that have unlimited                                                                    
exemptions in regard to both the personal residence and life                                                                    
insurance.  There are other states that have specific dollar                                                                    
limitations that vary.  Currently, Alaska is at the low end of                                                                  
these exemptions.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT acknowledged that the $8,075 was chosen                                                                    
because it matched federal law, and the $250,000 exemption is                                                                   
suggested because it would match federal law as well.  However, it                                                              
is indexed to the Anchorage consumer price index (CPI), in effect.                                                              
He surmised, "These are going to go off-line from the federal,                                                                  
gradually, right?"  He asked if any of the federal numbers are                                                                  
indexed and if so, on what index?                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER replied no.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT suggested that a solution could be to set the                                                              
[homestead] exemption at $250,000, but not index [that amount].                                                                 
Therefore, the amount would be tied to the federal law and it does                                                              
not continue to grow unless "we" decide it should.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 1537                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. MANLY interjected that Chris Miller, DOLWD, has recommended                                                                 
that indexing be eliminated altogether as it is burdensome and                                                                  
confusing in the statutes.  Mr. Manly commented that he did not                                                                 
believe Representative Harris would mind if indexing was                                                                        
eliminated.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said that the indexing is already in place                                                              
and the amounts are a moving target annually.  Therefore, he                                                                    
surmised that there could be a delay in the disposition of a case                                                               
pending verification of the numbers.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. MANLY noted that he believes with the bill as written, the                                                                  
numbers would change in October of even-numbered years.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT pointed out that what [is in statute] is a                                                                 
$54,000 statute that really was $63,000; one just had to know that                                                              
or find someone who did because of the lack of clarity in this                                                                  
statute.  Therefore, he preferred to have a statute that specified                                                              
the amount and if the amount increases at the federal level, there                                                              
can be discussion at that time in regard to whether to increase the                                                             
state's amount.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN indicated that such a scenario made sense to                                                               
him.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. GREER noted that he did not have it [indexing] in the bill to                                                               
begin with, but Teresa Bannister, Attorney, Legal and Research                                                                  
Services Division, added the indexing provisions.  If it takes                                                                  
deletion of the indexing to make HB 369 more palatable to the                                                                   
legislature, then he suggested its deletion.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1719                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG moved that the committee adopt a conceptual                                                             
amendment to delete Sections 11 and 12 and the attendant statutory                                                              
conforming draft that would be necessary with the removal of the                                                                
CPI provisions.  There being no objection, it was so ordered and                                                                
Amendment 3 was adopted.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN pointed out that Amendment 3 in effect deletes                                                             
Amendment 1.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG agreed.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA related her understanding that the                                                                      
underlying statute, which maintains the index, is not being                                                                     
removed.  She said, "We're not putting in Sections 11 and 12 of the                                                             
bill."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG specified, "That's right, just as related                                                               
to the bill."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA pointed out, then, that the index would                                                                 
still remain in the underlying statute.  The CPI is still in                                                                    
statute.  She commented that there could be deep drafting impacts.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT suggested that a committee substitute (CS) be                                                              
brought back before the committee.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN interjected that the CS would need to be                                                                   
[based] on the intent of removing indexing.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA indicated it would be helpful to have                                                                   
someone speak to how this works with indexing in the statute.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN announced that the committee would take a                                                                  
brief at-ease at 2:40 p.m. and he called the committee back to                                                                  
order at 2:42 p.m.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 2030                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG moved that the committee rescind its action                                                             
in the adoption of Amendment 3 for the purposes of reading                                                                      
Amendment 3.  There being no objection, it was so ordered and the                                                               
committee rescinded its action in the adoption of Amendment 3.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG moved that the committee delete the CPI                                                                 
clause as set forth in Sections 11 and 12 "so as not to directly                                                                
effect or change those provisions within the bill before us and not                                                             
other sections of the chapter."                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked if the desire is to leave the CPI as                                                              
it is and let it continue to impact everything or is the desire to                                                              
remove the homestead [CPI]?                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG specified, "It was the insurance and the                                                                
issues that are covered in the bill that are capped."                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA turned to the medical savings in regard to                                                              
the deferred compensation.  If that is extended to the entire bill,                                                             
then those sections are impacted.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG commented that those are unlimited.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. MANLY informed the committee that Mr. Miller, DOLWD, said the                                                               
following:  "The frequency of statutory intervention calls into                                                                 
question the necessity/efficacy of subsection 115 of the Act; it's                                                              
deletion is recommended."  Mr. Manly said that Mr. Miller is                                                                    
recommending the deletion of [AS] 09.38.115(a) and (b).                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA pointed out that would take it out for                                                                  
everything and she was unsure as to what that would impact.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT suggested that be done in a CS.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said he understood Representative Rokeberg's                                                               
amendment to [apply] only to the references in HB 369 and not all                                                               
of [AS] 09.38.115(a) and (b).                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG agreed that would be the motion before the                                                              
committee.  He suggested that there could be a CS that would take                                                               
it [the index] out entirely and that could be reviewed by the                                                                   
sponsor.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 2273                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG restated his motion to delete the CPI                                                                   
provisions in Sections 11 and 12 of HB 369 to impact only those                                                                 
sections in the bill.  There being no objection, it was so ordered                                                              
and Amendment 3 was adopted.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN announced that two CSs will be prepared for                                                                
the committee.  One CS will include [Amendment 3], which only                                                                   
affects HB 369, and the other CS will include the deletion of the                                                               
CPI [altogether].  Representative Green further announced that HB
369 would be held.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
HB 398 - LIFE AND HEALTH INSURANCE GUARANTY ASSN                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN announced that the final order business would                                                              
be, HOUSE BILL NO. 398, "An Act relating to the Alaska Life and                                                                 
Health Insurance Guaranty Association."  [Before the committee is                                                               
CSHB 398(L&C).]                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 2437                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JOHN MANLY, Staff to Representative John Harris, Alaska State                                                                   
Legislature, explained that HB 398 would update the statutes                                                                    
relating to the insurance guaranty association in order to conform                                                              
with the most recent model statute.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 00-36, SIDE A                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. MANLY turned the discussion over to John George.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG clarified that [HB 398] refers to life and                                                              
health insurance.  There is another bill, HB 310, that addresses an                                                             
association related to property and casualty.  He noted that there                                                              
are two different guaranty associations in Alaska.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 0229                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JOHN GEORGE, Lobbyist, American Council of Life Insurance (ACLI),                                                               
agreed with Representative Rokeberg that the life and health                                                                    
insurance guaranty association is very different from the property                                                              
and casualty guaranty association as the two have very different                                                                
operations.  He explained that when a property/casualty insurance                                                               
company becomes insolvent, there are claims that are outstanding                                                                
which would need to be settled in order to collect and distribute                                                               
the money.  When a life insurance company becomes insolvent, there                                                              
are ongoing policies for which people continue to make payments.                                                                
The primary goal for a life insurance guaranty association is to                                                                
find a home for policies that are in effect and transfer those to                                                               
a new company which would take over that obligation.  Therefore,                                                                
years from now when a person makes a claim against the policy, that                                                             
person would have the protection.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. GEORGE stated that HB 398 is essentially the National                                                                       
Association of Insurance Commissioners (NAIC) model bill.  The NAIC                                                             
writes in a totally different language than the legislative bill                                                                
drafters, and therefore there have been problems in converting NAIC                                                             
language to bill drafter language.  Those language problems have                                                                
resulted in some committee substitutes.  He noted that he has                                                                   
another amendment, labeled 1-LS1376\I.2, Ford, 3/22/00 [Ford I.2],                                                              
to propose.  Mr. George informed the committee that his clients                                                                 
met, via teleconference, with the Division of Insurance and there                                                               
were about 20 differences, which were worked out [save one item].                                                               
The bill that was before the House Labor & Commerce Committee only                                                              
required a two word change on page 13, lines 20 and 27, the words                                                               
"to intervene" were added and thus there was a committee substitute                                                             
(CS).  With regard to the aforementioned amendment, Ford I.2, Mr.                                                               
George believes that CSHB 398(L&C) with the Ford I.2 amendment is                                                               
something that he and the division would agree upon, except for the                                                             
two words inserted in the House Labor & Commerce Committee.  Mr.                                                                
George noted that he represents ACLI which supports the bill.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 0615                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DON THOMAS, Executive Director, Alaska Life and Health Insurance                                                                
Guaranty Association, testified via teleconference from Anchorage.                                                              
He stated that he is present to convey the association's support                                                                
for CSHB 398 [CSHB 398(L&C)] as well as the amendment mentioned by                                                              
Mr. George.  The association supports the bill and the amendment                                                                
for the reasons stated by Mr. Manly and Mr. George.  The bill                                                                   
represents lessons learned over the previous ten years of the                                                                   
association's existence and these changes are based on the NAIC                                                                 
model act.  He noted that HB 398 is, as noted earlier, similar in                                                               
its intent as HB 310, which updates the guaranty association law                                                                
regarding property and casualty policies.  He pointed out that this                                                             
committee moved HB 310 out of committee a few weeks ago and thus                                                                
for consistency this committee should do the same with HB 398.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT inquired as to what this legislation does.  He                                                             
asked, "What are the major policy shifts that it accomplishes?"                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. GEORGE pointed out that financial products have changed.                                                                    
Furthermore, some insolvencies were found in other states due to                                                                
the lack of appropriate tools.  Therefore, this legislation                                                                     
essentially updates [the tools].  For further information, Mr.                                                                  
George deferred to Mr. Thomas.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMAS noted that he also serves as the association's                                                                       
attorney.  He said that he could highlight those areas that make                                                                
things simpler for the association.  For example, there is a                                                                    
clarification of the definition of "policy ownership," which                                                                    
clearly excludes beneficial ownership.  The law as presently                                                                    
written is not exactly clear on that matter.  There is also a                                                                   
change which allows the domiciliary insurance director/commissioner                                                             
receivership core to approve alternative plans and rates.  Mr.                                                                  
Thomas noted that he has a summary of [changes] that was prepared                                                               
by Mr. George's clients.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA referred to pages 2-4, which seem to list                                                               
the ways in which people will not be covered.  There seem to be a                                                               
lot of new exceptions.  She asked if that would be a correct                                                                    
assessment.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0971                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MARY BETH STEVENS, Alaska Legislative Director and Counsel,                                                                     
American Council of Life Insurers (ACLI), testified via                                                                         
teleconference.  She informed the committee that ACLI is a national                                                             
trade association representing approximately 475 life insurance                                                                 
companies, the majority of which write business in Alaska.                                                                      
Although she said that she is not a detailed expert on this rule,                                                               
she believes that the changes to the Alaska Act fall into one of                                                                
four categories.  She specified, "The first category of amendments                                                              
includes proposals to change the situs of guaranty association                                                                  
coverage for unallocated annuities from the state of residence as                                                               
the contract owner to the state of the principal place of business                                                              
of the plan sponsor."  She believes that much of what is included                                                               
on pages 3 and 4 references coverage of unallocated annuities.  She                                                             
clarified that the purpose of this change is to eliminate "form"                                                                
shopping by plan sponsors.  Furthermore, the situs of coverage for                                                              
structured settlement annuities was changed from the state contract                                                             
holder to the state of residence of the payee or injured party.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. STEVENS turned to the second category of amendments which                                                                   
clarifies that assessments can be authorized and called at                                                                      
different times.  Furthermore, it eliminates coverage economically                                                              
in material policy guarantees.  She noted that the guaranty                                                                     
association's authority to act is broadened in the event of an                                                                  
impairment.  The guaranty association's authority is also expanded                                                              
to provide substitute coverage of annuities and the authority of                                                                
receivership court to approve alternative policies.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. STEVENS moved on to the third category of amendments which                                                                  
attempt to clarify rather than change anything.  She explained that                                                             
several sections of the [NAIC] model act have been the subject of                                                               
constant litigation.  The [fourth category of] amendments also                                                                  
include proposals to specifically eliminate synthetic guaranteed                                                                
investment contracts (GICs) from coverage and from the $5 million                                                               
cap on coverage for coverage of "Coly and Boly" (ph) policies held                                                              
by one owner.  There is also a one percent assessment rule on                                                                   
subaccounts.  Furthermore, the amendments would allow guaranty                                                                  
associations to propose their own early access plan with no                                                                     
distributions received within 120 days of an insolvency.  The                                                                   
amendments would also reduce the authority and the responsibility                                                               
of guaranty associations with regard to insolvency prevention and                                                               
reporting.  Ms. Stevens commented that although she does not                                                                    
purport to know all the details of this legislation, she pointed                                                                
out that all of these issues have been [discussed] over a number of                                                             
years at the NAIC level with input from a variety of sources.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG remarked that it is unfortunate that the                                                                
current bill packet does not include all the supporting materials                                                               
that were included in the House Labor & Commerce bill packet.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN suggested that the supporting information is                                                               
necessary in order to understand this legislation.  Therefore,                                                                  
Representative Green held HB 398 in order to obtain this additional                                                             
material.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
There being no further business before the committee, the House                                                                 
Judiciary Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:10 p.m.                                                                 

Document Name Date/Time Subjects